4,000+ hours of Russian and 400+ of Mandarin: A Very Late 2 Year Update
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Intro
Hi!
I’m Attenius (or 啊天ъ), a native English speaker from the US
learning Russian and Mandarin. It's been a while since my 2 years of Russian immersion learning post was supposed to go out and I was supposed to switch to Mandarin as my primary focus, but a cool opportunity came up, so I decided to shift my plans back a bit.
I switched to immersion methods around July 2020. I'm roughly following the plans and advice given at https://refold.la. If you're not familiar with me or Refold, you might be interested in earlier posts (they're not all as outrageously long as this one):
- 6 Months Russian
- 9 Months Russian
- 12 Months Russian
- 15 Months Russian
- 18 Months Russian
- 21 Months Russian + 1ish Month Mandarin
I've also copied my summary of the Refold methodology below.
Refold
About a month into my pandemic studies, I kept seeing Matt vs. Japan
in my YouTube recommendations while watching Russian With Max's videos.
“Who’s this self-important weeb who thinks he knows so much about language
learning?” was a frequent thought I had. After watching a few of his
videos, I found that a lot of his points made sense, and I began to
follow Refold, a guide to learning languages through consuming media which Matt co-created.
You can read more on the Refold website at https://refold.la, but two core assumptions of the methodology (based on the theories of the linguist Stephen Krashen) are:
- Subconsciously acquiring a language is different from consciously learning it—knowing the mechanics of swimming is helpful, but not enough for you to be able to swim well.
- Language is acquired through comprehensible input—reading
or listening to language that is slightly above our level. Corollary:
grammar study, speaking, and writing do not contribute directly to language acquisition.
The core methods of Refold are:
- Stage 1. First, learn the sounds, writing system, and basic vocabulary (500-1,500 words) of your target language (TL). Skim through some basic grammar. Start consuming content in your TL, even if you feel like you can only catch the occasional word.
- Stage 2. Fully immerse in the language—listen to and read as much content by native speakers of the TL as possible. Look up grammar and vocab when you feel like it. The easier the content is, the more comprehensible input there will be to learn from, but enjoyment takes priority.
- Use Anki to supplement immersion with sentence mining—when
you find a sentence in your immersion with only one unknown word or
grammar concept, make a card for it with the text or audio on the front
and a (preferably TL) definition of the unknown word on the back. This
helps keep your memory of that word or concept alive long enough for you
to acquire it in your immersion.
- Stage 3. Once you have almost perfect comprehension of a particular domain of content (e.g. slice-of-live TV shows), work on outputting (writing and speaking) by immersing in everyday conversation and choosing one native speaker as your language parent.
Write small amounts each week and immerse in your parent’s content until you can understand them with
ease, then copy their style of speaking. As you output, you'll notice
gaps in your knowledge to target with further immersion.
- Stage 4. Once you’re comfortable outputting, master other domains.
Numbers
Russian
I count passive listening time (listening while exercising, cooking, etc.) as 1/ 3 time.
After wavering and backfilling estimated times several times late in this period, I finally decided to stop tracking my Russian immersion time sometime in August, when I started pivoting towards Chinese.
Mandarin
Again, passive listening is counted as 1/3. I didn't bother with splitting out subtitled listening ("Mixed" here) with Russian as it made up such a tiny fraction of what I watched in that language (and I'm not really a fan of reading along with audiobooks), but Chinese has a ton of subbed content, so I decided to track it here.
I also didn't track grammar study/phonetics at all with Russian even though I probably have a couple dozen hours of it that wasn't also in the language itself. Some of it is rolled into the "Pre-January 2022 Estimate" column there, since that includes my time in traditional classes. There's probably another 2-3 hours of explicit Chinese grammar/phonetics study rolled into the "Pre-March 2022 Estimate" here.
Events
Getting over the beginner's hump in Chinese
5,000,000 words read from books in Russian
As I mentioned in my last post in April, I had a goal of hitting 5 million words read total from books in Russian before my 2-year Refoldiversary (around July 7), starting from around 3.6 million. And I did it!
Trying to do this on top of getting started with Chinese was not very easy, even for someone who has a relatively large amount of free time and a fairly obsessive personality like me. Until I hit the goal I did very little Russian listening outside my daily walk, while driving, or going to sleep. There were several weekends where combining both languages I read for more than 6 hours in a day, which for me is a crazy high amount that I've only managed once or twice before in the last couple years.
While I'm proud of the achievement, I do feel like it burned me out a bit on reading in Russian. Some books I chose just because they were easy, and when I finished the challenge I was totally burned out for a few weeks. I still feel burned out on novels, and I've only been able to get myself to read for any serious amount of time with manga translations or nonfiction.
Moving in with a Russian
One of my closest friends (who I'll call Alex here) is an ethnic Russian from Kazakhstan who immigrated to the US that I met in high school. He lives in another state now, and we hadn't seen each other since the start of the pandemic, so he invited me to come stay at his house. As the date became clearer and I completed my reading challenge, in preparation I switched over to mostly listening in Russian and doing less than an hour of Chinese a day (usually just a couple new Anki cards, an episode of a cartoon, and 10 minutes of reading manhua). I also got back into shadowing/chorusing.
When I arrived, we drank and chatted until early in the morning, and I had what was certainly my most philosophical conversation in Russian. I also noticed that Alex's Russian had taken on some pretty heavy American qualities, such as pronouncing the "стр" cluster in "странно" as the "str" in "strange", although he still had native-like flow, grammar, and listening ability. Generally while I was there without encouragement from me (which eventually I ran out of) or the presence of other Russian speakers, he preferred to use English the majority of the time, which makes sense given that he's lived in the US for more than half his life.
I also got to speak with several other Russian speakers in the 6 weeks I stayed with him, such as Alex's mom, who I also had a hard time keeping in Russian even though I felt I made it pretty clear I understood her. She did, at least, seem very impressed and excited, and I could not spend much time around her without getting compliments on my ability and my accent. I also helped Alex move his stuff out of his old apartment, and a Belarusian immigrant and a 2nd-generation Belarusian immigrant Alex knew were there to help. We spoke Russian almost the entire time, and it felt really cool to use the language to get something done.
The person I spoke in Russian with the most while there was Alex's girlfriend (who I'll call Maria), a refugee from Ukraine. She did know some English and could read pretty well, however her speaking and listening seemed to be much more limited than my Russian, which led to us using almost exclusively Russian when I was with her (either that or she was just being kind enough to let me practice with her). While I of course had stumbles and mistakes, I had almost no trouble understanding her or being an active participant in conversations with her and Alex together, and we were able to navigate plans and and household occurrences without any particular strain.
Maria and I chatted about a pretty wide range of topics--shows, food, our jobs, traveling, how Chinese characters work, our language learning techniques, and of course a little bit about the war, although I tried to stay away from the subject. She was in Kyiv at the start of the invasion, and she had a video of rockets (or something equally flying and fiery) falling on the other side of the city and pictures from her time staying in a bomb shelter. She eventually left via Poland to come live with her friend in the US. I guess all I can say is meeting someone living through this crisis in person and being able to understand their story untranslated unsurprisingly added even more weight to the events in my mind, and I hope people will continue to support Ukraine and not forget that this is still happening.
In general, I was really struck by just how much easier it is to understand people that are in the same room with you. Beyond not being able to understand quiet speech not directed at me, throughout the 6 weeks I was there there were only about 4 occasions that really stuck out to me:
- My first time speaking with Alex's mom in Russian she asked which road I took to get there, and I misunderstood her as asking what the road was like (similar constructions in Russian). I worry this might have been why she used so much English with me.
- Maria asked if I liked to ходить [walk] while we were hiking (check out the great view of the forest we had in the picture above), and since AFAIK Russian doesn't really have a verb used the same way as hiking is used in English in this context (long walks in nature), I didn't understand if the question was about hiking or walking in general. I went with the latter and she seemed satisfied with my response.
- Alex played some games with his friends from Kazakhstan in Discord, broadcasting the sound over his computer speakers with me in the room. He understood them just fine, but I struggled to understand 70%, which for me was already a familiar experience--headphones and good microphones and connections make things much easier.
- I watched several episodes of Бригада [Brigada]and 17 мгновений весны [17 Moments of Spring] with Alex on his TV speakers, and the shows being in almost completely unfamiliar domains combined with the echoey room we were in sent me back to 50%-understanding land, which I thought I'd left far behind me. At some point I asked him to explain what was going on, but I had been lost for several episodes and hadn't managed to pick up most of the characters' names, so I didn't understand the explanations either. He did at least admit that he sometimes had trouble understanding the characters as well.
There were also about 3 occasions where I didn't know the name of a food item, and during one conversation I mentioned that my father was traveling with his sisters, who were interpreted as my own sisters for several minutes by the people I was speaking with.
Despite the relative ease I felt understanding people and everyone's frequent compliments, I did feel a lot of negative emotion about my Russian a lot of the time I was there. I was frustrated that I wasn't able to really express my own personality with my limited ability, I was constantly anxious about my mistakes, and I regretted not making activities like speaking, corrected reading, and chorusing bigger and more regular things before the trip.
All of this can be solved by further practice of course, and my time there was a net positive as a life experience and learning opportunity. I'm already looking forward to my next visit.
Plans and goals
Learning Mandarin
I'm planning to focus on Mandarin as much as I can up to the point where I can comfortably understand at least some genres of audiobooks and podcasts for natives, as for me those seem like the easiest ways to maintain a language forever--just throw something genuinely entertaining on while you're grocery shopping or whatever. At that point I think I'll feel open to doing another big push in Russian. A substage of this goal is getting to where I can read some kinds of novels relatively comfortably, as reading is my favorite language learning activity.
I'm a lot more familiar with the process now, and I feel a lot more comfortable and efficient in my approach. I focused more heavily on phonetics early on than I did with Russian and put off grammar for the most part until recently, and now I'm just lightly skimming it for 5-10 minutes/day on the Chinese Grammar Wiki. I'm shoving new words into my brain as fast as I can with Anki (in proportion with how much time I can immerse), doing a little bit of comprehensible input-style stuff like the Teatime Chinese podcast or kids' shows each day, and consuming a lot of stuff that's entertaining for me, like donghua (Chinese anime), anime dubs, manhua (comics), streams, and let's plays.
I'm already feeling pretty good about my progress. Reading manhua with lookups from Hanping OCR is super enjoyable already, I've seen myself go from "this language is totally gibberish" to being able to follow most of Peppa Pig and Teatime Chinese without subs and "donghua is only like half gibberish", and learning new words and characters just keeps getting easier.
As for hitting that reading substage, I have a series of Japanese light novels that I already know I like and aren't fully translated into Russian but are in Chinese, and I've been targeting a lot of my effort towards specifically understanding the first couple volumes in that series. Since my problems with repetitive strain injuries make some sentence mining and lookup workflows difficult, I've been looking at other ways to get my comprehension going. I messed around with Chinese Text Analyzer to create some custom Anki decks and my own Python scripts to create a custom frequency dictionary for Pleco and filter this 5000 word HSK Anki deck for only words that show up at least twice in the first two volumes (and sort them by frequency). I've been trying to immerse in related domains in easier materials like manhua and donghua as well.
I know about 1,500 words and need to know about 3,500 words (unique and specific to this book, not just in general) to have 98% coverage of the first 20k words of the first volume, so if I push hard and stay focused on this domain, I think this winter I'll be able to start on an enjoyable (albeit still lookup-heavy) experience with the series. And I know if I can just hit this checkpoint, Chinese should be a smooth ride up until the output phase.
Maintaining Russian
I check Russian social media every morning and there's tons of stuff I still want to watch and read, so I'm not super worried about maintaining Russian. I want to stay at well under an hour a day most days, but I do plan to stay with Alex again relatively soon and I do really enjoy the time around New Year's in Russian, so I will probably indulge in a couple weeks of Russian-focused time this winter.
Russian - Stuff I consumed
https://atteniusll.blogspot.com/2021/12/my-favorite-resources-and-content-for.html
Russian - Listening
Russian - Reading
Russian - Anki
I've mined about 6,900 cards myself and did a 3,000-card premade deck, putting me pretty close to Khatzumoto's fabled 10,000. At the moment I'm taking a break from adding new cards, and once I'm settled I'm planning to just do 2 new cards a day. I don't ever want to get totally out of the habit of learning words in Russian, and if I crack open a book from a tough author like Gogol I have no trouble finding cool words I still want to learn on nearly every page.
Mandarin - Stuff I consumed
Mandarin - Listening
- Entertaining at low comprehension
- I don't care that much about not understanding (because it sucks or I'm willing to watch it again)
- Easy
Mandarin - Reading
Thanks
Огромное спасибо and 多谢 [huge thanks] to my friends and the Refold Discord server communities for chatting with me, enduring my complaints, humoring my questions, and correcting my mistakes!If you have any questions feel free to leave a comment or hit me up on the Refold Discord. I'm usually tired after I write these, so it might be a bit before I get back to you.
Lastly I would just like to mention that Blogger kind of sucks, and I'm looking to move off of it. I don't really recommend anyone else use it, either. I think my next update will be at 1,000 hours of Mandarin, so maybe in January if I go really hard and nothing comes up. See you then!
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